UK moves closer towards banning lootboxes

drakthir · July 2020

Below is a copy/paste from the BBC news link - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53253195

The House of Lords Gambling Committee says video game loot boxes should be regulated under gambling laws.

The Lords say they should be classified as "games of chance" - which would bring them under the Gambling Act 2005.

"If a product looks like gambling and feels like gambling, it should be regulated as gambling," their report says.

And they warn that such a change should not wait.

"The government must act immediately to bring loot boxes within the remit of gambling legislation and regulation," said a statement accompanying the report.

Loot boxes have long been controversial in video games. They offer players a chance at a randomised reward when opened. To further complicate matters, boxes can often be bought for real money, and the rewards can sometimes be traded.

Lord Grade, chairman of the committee, told BBC Breakfast that lots of other countries have already started to regulate loot boxes because "they can see the dangers" which is teaching "kids to gamble".

He said the Gambling Act was "way behind what was actually happening in the market" but he added that the "overwhelming majority" of the report's recommendations "could be enacted today" as they don't require legislation.

The Lords report is wide-ranging, covering the entire gambling industry, but focuses in part on new forms of gambling, and those targeted towards children.

"There is academic research which proves that there is a connection, though not necessarily a causal link, between loot box spending and problem gambling," it says.

One expert, Dr David Zendle, explained to the committee that either loot box spending causes problem gambling, due to their similarity - or that people who have gambling problems spend heavily on loot boxes. But he warned that either way, the connection was "extraordinarily robust".

The Lords report concludes that ministers should make new regulations which explicitly state that loot boxes are games of chance. It also says the same definition should apply to any other in-game item paid for with real money, such as FIFA player packs.

Thoughts?

holden_caulfield · July 2020

I don't think it talks about banning but just more regulated

holden_caulfield · July 2020

Besides UK has been a pioneer in gambling. In UK i can gamble on almost everything

Nairinhe · July 2020

I think that nothing will change.
Although it would be interesting to see what ZOS would do if crown crates get banned. Can they restrict their purchase for a certain region?

P.S. On

drakthir wrote: »

They offer players a chance at a randomised reward when opened.

(without real money part) why loot boxes with cosmetics are bad, but random drops in-game (including containers with random gear) are fine, then?

Princess_Ciri · July 2020

ESO is rated 18 right?

Gambling is legal for adults (or those over 16 in the UK) so I think although ZOS would need to adhere to stricter regulations it doesn't mean an end to loot boxes.

Glurin · July 2020

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

Gambling is legal for adults

Eh, depends on the region and form of gambling. There's a reason underground poker games are a thing.

holden_caulfield · July 2020

I still don't understand all the hate.
We are surrounded by gambling service's. They are an important part of countries income.
In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

Brrrofski · July 2020

Glurin wrote: »

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

Gambling is legal for adults

Eh, depends on the region and form of gambling. There's a reason underground poker games are a thing.

Not in the UK. You can legally gamble on almost everything.

I don't see how the tighter regulations will have an impact on eso as it's an 18+ game.

Other games might be impacted it by it. But it might just be that age certificates on those games increase. Which isn't a big deal, as nobody has ever cared about video games ratings. Parents will buy games for their kids, and I bought/ranted 18+ rated games when I wasn't 18 for sure.

JTD · July 2020

In both Belgium and The Netherlands loot boxes are in the proces of becoming regulated. Examples are Dota 2 where loot boxes do not give random rewards anymore but you see before you buy them what you will get out of that box. This circumvents the 'random' aspect which makes it akin to gambling.

'The discussion is not if it is or is not gambling. The discussion is what will ZOS do when it (eventually) will be regulated? Up until now ZOS just is not big enough for the authorities to take interest in. This however can change at any moment.

Also keep in mind that regulations take a long time to change but once set in motion almost always happen. It's like a mammoth tanker, you might not have noticed it changing course.. but is sure did. Especially on the EU-level.

Glurin · July 2020

Nairinhe wrote: »

(without real money part) why loot boxes with cosmetics are bad, but random drops in-game (including containers with random gear) are fine, then?

Short answer, knee jerk reaction from people in the "loot boxes bad" camp. Some loot box systems get abused and therefore all loot boxes in all contexts should be banned. The connection between loot boxes and any other randomized reward system just doesn't get made because literally no thought went into it.

Glurin · July 2020

JTD wrote: »

The discussion is what will ZOS do when it (eventually) will be regulated?

That depends entirely on the nature of the regulations. There are no conclusions that can be drawn until we know exactly how loot boxes will be regulated, if at all.

holden_caulfield · July 2020

JTD wrote: »

In both Belgium and The Netherlands loot boxes are in the proces of becoming regulated. Examples are Dota 2 where loot boxes do not give random rewards anymore but you see before you buy them what you will get out of that box. This circumvents the 'random' aspect which makes it akin to gambling.

'The discussion is not if it is or is not gambling. The discussion is what will ZOS do when it (eventually) will be regulated? Up until now ZOS just is not big enough for the authorities to take interest in. This however can change at any moment.

Also keep in mind that regulations take a long time to change but once set in motion almost always happen. It's like a mammoth tanker, you might not have noticed it changing course.. but is sure did. Especially on the EU-level.

Big enough? Are u talking about the mother company zenimax? Bethesda? ID?
IP like doom, elder scrolls?
What's big in your view?

Danikat · July 2020

Since ESO is already rated 18 in the UK (and those age ratings are legally enforced, if only at the point of sale) and online gambling is already legal for over 18s here the only way it's likely to affect this game is that ZOS might be required to pay for a gambling licence and comply with the conditions, which includes things like reporting annually on the type/s of gambling you offer and the profits made.

I'm certain ZOS would be able to do that, but they might decide it's not worth the hassle for the income they get from UK players buying loot boxes (I have no idea how much that is, I'm just talking hypothetically here) and it's easier to block anyone in the UK from buying crown crates, or to change them so they don't qualify as gambling under the updated law.

Although it's also possible, depending on the exact wording of the updated law, that crown crates won't qualify anyway. I've been following this review for a while and a big part of the focus is on games where you can sell the stuff you get from loot boxes. A lot of companies brush that off by saying they don't allow it, but of course that doesn't stop players going to sites like Ebay or even Facebook and selling their items to other people. Whereas in ESO it's literally impossible because anything you get from crown crates is bound to your account and can't be traded.

Tandor · July 2020

Danikat wrote: »

Since ESO is already rated 18 in the UK (and those age ratings are legally enforced, if only at the point of sale) and online gambling is already legal for over 18s here the only way it's likely to affect this game is that ZOS might be required to pay for a gambling licence and comply with the conditions, which includes things like reporting annually on the type/s of gambling you offer and the profits made.

I'm certain ZOS would be able to do that, but they might decide it's not worth the hassle for the income they get from UK players buying loot boxes (I have no idea how much that is, I'm just talking hypothetically here) and it's easier to block anyone in the UK from buying crown crates, or to change them so they don't qualify as gambling under the updated law.

Although it's also possible, depending on the exact wording of the updated law, that crown crates won't qualify anyway. I've been following this review for a while and a big part of the focus is on games where you can sell the stuff you get from loot boxes. A lot of companies brush that off by saying they don't allow it, but of course that doesn't stop players going to sites like Ebay or even Facebook and selling their items to other people. Whereas in ESO it's literally impossible because anything you get from crown crates is bound to your account and can't be traded.

Agreed, plus the lootboxes that cause the most controversy are those where you either get what you want or nothing, whereas with crown crates you always get things equivalent at least in theory to the cost of the crate (although what something is worth to an individual player will vary according to the player). Gems are very significant in this respect, as is the fact that nothing in the crates is required to play the game competitively or otherwise so there is no sense of compulsion. Gambling where you win or lose is very different to mini-games where you always win but with an element of chance as to what you win.

There's one thing that is always missing from these discussions of course. I have yet to see a single critic of crown crates provide an alternative source of revenue if crates go. They don't want increased subs, indeed many won't buy a sub at all, and they dislike the whole "clown" store concept, so how do they propose that the game should be funded?

holden_caulfield · July 2020

Tandor wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Since ESO is already rated 18 in the UK (and those age ratings are legally enforced, if only at the point of sale) and online gambling is already legal for over 18s here the only way it's likely to affect this game is that ZOS might be required to pay for a gambling licence and comply with the conditions, which includes things like reporting annually on the type/s of gambling you offer and the profits made.

I'm certain ZOS would be able to do that, but they might decide it's not worth the hassle for the income they get from UK players buying loot boxes (I have no idea how much that is, I'm just talking hypothetically here) and it's easier to block anyone in the UK from buying crown crates, or to change them so they don't qualify as gambling under the updated law.

Although it's also possible, depending on the exact wording of the updated law, that crown crates won't qualify anyway. I've been following this review for a while and a big part of the focus is on games where you can sell the stuff you get from loot boxes. A lot of companies brush that off by saying they don't allow it, but of course that doesn't stop players going to sites like Ebay or even Facebook and selling their items to other people. Whereas in ESO it's literally impossible because anything you get from crown crates is bound to your account and can't be traded.

Agreed, plus the lootboxes that cause the most controversy are those where you either get what you want or nothing, whereas with crown crates you always get things equivalent at least in theory to the cost of the crate (although what something is worth to an individual player will vary according to the player). Gems are very significant in this respect, as is the fact that nothing in the crates is required to play the game competitively or otherwise so there is no sense of compulsion. Gambling where you win or lose is very different to mini-games where you always win but with an element of chance as to what you win.

There's one thing that is always missing from these discussions of course. I have yet to see a single critic of crown crates provide an alternative source of revenue if crates go. They don't want increased subs, indeed many won't buy a sub at all, and they dislike the whole "clown" store concept, so how do they propose that the game should be funded?

Many players think that the eso plus subscribers are enough. Others think that they bought the game so they have the right to play everything dlc and chapters included. The majority of those people don't have a clue of how much a game like eso costs to mantain and expand.

VaranisArano · July 2020

holden_caulfield wrote: »

I still don't understand all the hate.
We are surrounded by gambling service's. They are an important part of countries income.
In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

They aren't free. Someone has to spend real money so you can get your chance at the item you want.

I dislike Crown Crates because it's bad for consumers to only get a chance at the item they want. But it's amazing for ZOS' profits, so it won't substantially change. ZOS will simply follow any new regulations and continue funneling new items into the Crown Crates.

holden_caulfield · July 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

I still don't understand all the hate.
We are surrounded by gambling service's. They are an important part of countries income.
In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

They aren't free. Someone has to spend real money so you can get your chance at the item you want.

I dislike Crown Crates because it's bad for consumers to only get a chance at the item they want. But it's amazing for ZOS' profits, so it won't substantially change. ZOS will simply follow any new regulations and continue funneling new items into the Crown Crates.

That someone isn't U. And THAT someone could spend his entire income on whatever he wants. So that someone is doing what he likes and u get something for free.

What's your problem with that?

Hurbster · July 2020

Shouldn't affect ESO as long as it's 18 rated. It's pretty much aimed at FIFA which I believe is age-rated as 3 and is much more insidious.

What they might have to do is give drop percentages.

holden_caulfield · July 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

I still don't understand all the hate.
We are surrounded by gambling service's. They are an important part of countries income.
In eso crates are FREE. yes free. Farm gold buy crowns and open your evil boxes.
What is that bother many of u so much?
Me? Never bought any crate. Actually if it wouldn't for this forum I forget they exist

They aren't free. Someone has to spend real money so you can get your chance at the item you want.

I dislike Crown Crates because it's bad for consumers to only get a chance at the item they want. But it's amazing for ZOS' profits, so it won't substantially change. ZOS will simply follow any new regulations and continue funneling new items into the Crown Crates.

Do u understand that there is a need to keep some asset rare?
A game with everyone running around like a shining God isn't interesting for none.
And to keep things rare u have 2 ways.
A slight chance of getting them or price them in a way that only few whales could afford

Whereis_Kyno · July 2020

They'll probably have to give more info about drop rates/chances but I doubt crates will be banned or have limited purchases. Gonna target sport games more where like a £20 pack is extremely vague in what you can get, as well as how it affects a younger audience compared to ESO

Whereis_Kyno · July 2020

Also I bet mobile games are gonna be the ones to suffer, not console/PC games as much. Look at game like SwGoH or clash royale and they give 0 information about what your are more likely to get or not.

JTD · July 2020

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Big enough? Are u talking about the mother company zenimax? Bethesda? ID?
IP like doom, elder scrolls?
What's big in your view?

In this case i mean that ESO (and in extension Bethesda) isn't a big enough 'deal' in the public opinion as all the eyes are focused on (for example) fortnite and EA's Fifa (in europe).

RaddlemanNumber7 · July 2020

OP has put totally the wrong spin on this.
This is an advisory recommendation. No actual steps have been taken.
Regulation does not equate to "banning", especially not in the UK. It's more like a form of taxation through licensing. If ZOS got a licence I do not expect anything about crown crates would have to change.

TheTwistedRune · July 2020

While I don't think it will force a removal of the crates, ZOS will need a license and will have to pay 15% in taxes on profits. At least that is my understanding. If they refuse they would not be issued with a new license.

At least this is how other gambling businesses operate.

Khatou · July 2020

The thing that should really be done is to limit the sometimes infamous freedom power of devs, because at the moment devs or editors can do some pretty nasty things most of the time is limited by it !!!

tgrippa · July 2020

If it does turn into law, it will likely be a blanket legislation covering all games, but the industry will adapt and either just exclude UK based accounts from purchasing them or move solely to non-lootbox items. Very very early days though.

rumple9 · July 2020

The real issue is that whilst ESO is an 18 rated game it is likely that the majority of players are under 18. The UK gambling regulations make it a criminal offence for both the company and the gambler to participate in gambling under 18 years of age (with some minor exceptions)

Further if crates are brought within UK gambling regulations, zos would also be subject to UK Gaming tax.

Hopefully crates will get removed from the game anyway

FierceSam · July 2020

Would be great if they were banned

I have no issue buying cosmetics. I’d buy a lot more if I could tell how much they cost. I have a major issue ‘buying the chance to get cosmetics’. Especially when the odds are never clearly stated and it is impossible to work out the actual, real life price of individual digital items.

Crown crates are a total abomination and should be banned ASAP.

tmbrinks · July 2020

rumple9 wrote: »

The real issue is that whilst ESO is an 18 rated game it is likely that the majority of players are under 18. The UK gambling regulations make it a criminal offence for both the company and the gambler to participate in gambling under 18 years of age (with some minor exceptions)

Further if crates are brought within UK gambling regulations, zos would also be subject to UK Gaming tax.

Hopefully crates will get removed from the game anyway

I highly doubt a "majority" of players in ESO are under 18.

I've been playing since launch, and I've literally interacted with less than 6 people under 18 (and all of them are now significantly older than 18 now)

ImmortalCX · July 2020

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Many players think that the eso plus subscribers are enough. Others think that they bought the game so they have the right to play everything dlc and chapters included. The majority of those people don't have a clue of how much a game like eso costs to mantain and expand.

This is like when school districts put soda machines in schools to help pay for the cafeteria operating expenses.

Most school districts have gotten rid of soda machines. Just because the argument can be made that it helps fund the free lunches program, doesn't mean its good.

And gambling, in general, is allowed to exist for the same reason, it can be taxed by the state. The state run lottery tickets? Same thing.

Its hypocrisy. In the USA, laws are in the books to shut down this practice, but Im sure the gaming industry lobby is significant. Video games are much bigger than movies.

Tandor · July 2020

rumple9 wrote: »

The real issue is that whilst ESO is an 18 rated game it is likely that the majority of players are under 18. The UK gambling regulations make it a criminal offence for both the company and the gambler to participate in gambling under 18 years of age (with some minor exceptions)

Further if crates are brought within UK gambling regulations, zos would also be subject to UK Gaming tax.

Hopefully crates will get removed from the game anyway

I don't believe for a minute that the majority of players are under 18. According to a poll in 2017 just 3% were under 18, as against 5% who were over 60.

If you get your wish and crates are removed from the game, how would you be prepared personally to contribute to a replacement revenue stream?