Impen changes kinda just seem like another Nightblade nerf, tbh.

Langeston · May 2020

Presently, in no CP, if you wear 7 Impen you have 1806 crit resistance (27.36%). In the same gear on the PTS, you'll have 2554 crit resistance (38.69%) — so you'll take 11.33% less critical damage with the new changes. Guess what class was basically designed around critical damage and relies on it the most? NB of course. (Templar also has a crit damage buff, but they don't have any trouble doing damage so I doubt they're gonna miss it much.) This change basically negates the Hemorrhage passive (and then some.)

I don't know if I'm just being paranoid or whatever, but with how this combat team has treated NBs over the past year+ I have a difficult time giving them the benefit of the doubt — intentional or not, the Impen change will negatively impact NBs the most. Yay.

(Whoops. I accidentally posted this in the PVP forum, so I "moved" it here myself.)

Banana · May 2020

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

Sanguinor2 · May 2020

I very much doubt that it was made intentionally for nightblades and templar nerfs. Much more likely that they want to help out the People that go into cyro/bgs with their pve builds (not that some crit resist is gonna save them but w/e). Or it being part of standardization because everyone in pvp runs impen therefore it must be overbudgetet (cant wait for divines nerf, that regrind is gonna be amazing).

Kolzki · May 2020

Banana wrote: »

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

Is that the mythic item that cancels your crit bonuses or the one that deactivates when cloaked?

Nevasca · May 2020

Tbh the creation of NB is a NB nerf. They couldn't get nerfed when didnt exist. ZOS always ruins everything.

x48rph · May 2020

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Tbh the creation of NB is a NB nerf. They couldn't get nerfed when didnt exist. ZOS always ruins everything.

Saddest part is even in it's current state you still find people crying for more NB nerfs.

Iskiab · May 2020

I don’t think it’ll effect NBs much. It’ll probably have the opposite effect.

The best traits besides impenetrable are sturdy, divines, infused and well fitted. I think it’ll moreso be a buff for any class/build that would want to dip into those traits, i.e gankers, blocking builds, medium armour and to a lesser degree max stat builds (magsorc and MagWarden).

I think you’ll see a lot of NBs with 7 divines with the lover mundus.

Tommy_The_Gun · May 2020

Banana wrote: »

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

So... now all NB will HAVE to be vamps in order to stay competitive vs other classes that are non-vamp ? ? ? How is that a buff for a NB class lol....

btw. If something, Vamp will synergize better with other classes, as they will take more benefit. Necro, Sorc, or Warden & Templar in particular.

Also... wait till you get ganked by non-nb vamps....

Deathlord92 · May 2020

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

So... now all NB will HAVE to be vamps in order to stay competitive vs other classes that are non-vamp ? ? ? How is that a buff for a NB class lol....

btw. If something, Vamp will synergize better with other classes, as they will take more benefit. Necro, Sorc, or Warden & Templar in particular.

Also... wait till you get ganked by non-nb vamps....

Now everyone has invisibility every class will be better rogues then nb lmao makes zero sense but it is what it is unfortunately 😔

Banana · May 2020

Kolzki wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

Is that the mythic item that cancels your crit bonuses or the one that deactivates when cloaked?

No

olsborg · May 2020

The impen changes to get ppl to try out other traits has imo failed. I went from 2900ish impen on live to 3400ish impen on pts and wont rly change a thing except maybe take a few points out of Resistance cp and into Quick Recovery. Crits just became less powerful and in pvp thats always nice.

Kolzki · May 2020

Banana wrote: »

Kolzki wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

Is that the mythic item that cancels your crit bonuses or the one that deactivates when cloaked?

No

Oh, ok. The one that lets them run away faster, yeah?

BaiterOfZergs · May 2020

I honestly don’t think people realize how high crit damage can go , you having 3k impen isn’t stopping a Templar or NB with an extra 30-40 percent crit damage + a ton of penetration.

Banana · May 2020

Kolzki wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

Kolzki wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

Is that the mythic item that cancels your crit bonuses or the one that deactivates when cloaked?

No

Oh, ok. The one that lets them run away faster, yeah?

Oh. Going invisible does get rid of it. Good news. I learnt something today

Kolzki · May 2020

Banana wrote: »

Kolzki wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

Kolzki wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

Is that the mythic item that cancels your crit bonuses or the one that deactivates when cloaked?

No

Oh, ok. The one that lets them run away faster, yeah?

Oh. Going invisible does get rid of it. Good news. I learnt something today

Yeah, thankfully it does. Vampire ganking will surely be a thing, but at least that particular mythic item won’t work with it.

Langeston · May 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

I don’t think it’ll effect NBs much. It’ll probably have the opposite effect.

The best traits besides impenetrable are sturdy, divines, infused and well fitted. I think it’ll moreso be a buff for any class/build that would want to dip into those traits, i.e gankers, blocking builds, medium armour and to a lesser degree max stat builds (magsorc and MagWarden).

I think you’ll see a lot of NBs with 7 divines with the lover mundus.

The way I see it, any NB intending to run divines is likely already running it. I also don't think that many people are going to switch from impen to other traits. Even if a lot of people start using The Ring of Malacath, crit will still be dangerous & therefore important to defend against. While you may be right to a certain degree, I think that this change will be a net negative for NBs.

The base crit resist should be 903, and each piece of Impen should be 129. That way, with 7 impen, you'd have the same amount of crit resistance as you do now. Just handing out free crit resistance isn't the way this should have gone.

Langeston · May 2020

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

I honestly don’t think people realize how high crit damage can go , you having 3k impen isn’t stopping a Templar or NB with an extra 30-40 percent crit damage + a ton of penetration.

Well, I know exactly how high it can go.

Irfind · May 2020

Kolzki wrote: »

Oh. Going invisible does get rid of it. Good news. I learnt something today

Yeah, thankfully it does. Vampire ganking will surely be a thing, but at least that particular mythic item won’t work with it.

Really ? Ok then i dont need the hassel to farm it

I cant wait to get killed even faster from Temps with it

Rianai · May 2020

Iskiab wrote: »

I don’t think it’ll effect NBs much. It’ll probably have the opposite effect.

The best traits besides impenetrable are sturdy, divines, infused and well fitted. I think it’ll moreso be a buff for any class/build that would want to dip into those traits, i.e gankers, blocking builds, medium armour and to a lesser degree max stat builds (magsorc and MagWarden).

I think you’ll see a lot of NBs with 7 divines with the lover mundus.

Divines and infused are garbarge compared to those other traits and only ever worth on gankers. And not every nb wants to be forced into such a limited playstyle (that's also very unfun to play against and probably the main reason for constant nb nerfs).

Gank builds getting buffed by the vamp changes is also most likely the reason why we are getting higher crit resist - and the nb that actually would like to fight are left in the dust.

Aedaryl · May 2020

People claiming you will have more infuse/divine are either low APM, didn't do the math or dµmb.

People will stay in majority in impen, and may drop one or two pieces for the traits that are worth it.

Sturdy and well fitted.

There is no reason ever if you are not a 100% gank build to put something else than Impen/sturdy/well fitted in PvP.

The meh thing about non gankblade, malacath and better crit resist is that NB will be left either with :

- Ring of the wild hunt which make decent stamblade nearly unkillable (this is overkill, NB don't need more kiting, they need more damage)

- Malacath bend but resulting in less damage increase than other classes (from the harrowstorm -> Greymoor swich).

- Torc of canal constancy, this one might be the key for stamblade, since the class utilse heavely both stam and mag, you may be able considerably reduce your regen and put damage instead by still being able to sustain with the mythic almost alone. If a stamblade want to test and tryhard (reduce mag pool for better stam regen proc, ect) to check it

Langeston · May 2020

Banana wrote: »

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

No, classes with good sustain and healing (read: non-Nightblades) are [potentially] getting buffed by the vamp changes, and the "ridiculous mythic item" resets to zero if you even accidentally crouch, let alone cloak.

I spent the better part of 2 weeks on the PTS trying to make vampirism work on my magblade, and basically I have to either stay at stage one and lose [a not insignificant amount of] damage, or cure myself and still lose a small amount. Blood Frenzy is completely non-viable.

The only NB PVP builds that vampirism may work with are high health tank builds (thus not much if any damage increase) and possibly bow-gank builds — but I'm not sure how viable even they would be since you need strong HOTs to make Blood Frenzy viable and all of your skills will be 10% more expensive if you want the Strike from the Shadows passive.

For all other NB builds, the vampirism rework is a net negative.

BaiterOfZergs · May 2020

Langeston wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

I honestly don’t think people realize how high crit damage can go , you having 3k impen isn’t stopping a Templar or NB with an extra 30-40 percent crit damage + a ton of penetration.

Well, I know exactly how high it can go.

So with base crit + crit modifiers how much damage is 3k impen really mitigating from a Templar and NB ?

Derra · May 2020

Aedaryl wrote: »

People will stay in majority in impen, and may drop one or two pieces for the traits that are worth it.

Sturdy and well fitted.

There is no reason ever if you are not a 100% gank build to put something else than Impen/sturdy/well fitted in PvP.

100x this.

The "good" defensive traits (still being impen, well fitted and stury) outperform the bad ones and the "offensive" choices by miles.

Mathematically - there is no choice. Unless you´re ganking using anything but the good 3 defensive traits is not optimal.

1 piece of impen will still provide 2.5% crit dmg reduction where one piece of divines (with a locked mundus choice) provides not even 1% critdmg.

Baraber · May 2020

Langeston wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

No, classes with good sustain and healing (read: non-Nightblades) are [potentially] getting buffed by the vamp changes, and the "ridiculous mythic item" resets to zero if you even accidentally crouch, let alone cloak.

I spent the better part of 2 weeks on the PTS trying to make vampirism work on my magblade, and basically I have to either stay at stage one and lose [a not insignificant amount of] damage, or cure myself and still lose a small amount. Blood Frenzy is completely non-viable.

The only NB PVP builds that vampirism may work with are high health tank builds (thus not much if any damage increase) and possibly bow-gank builds — but I'm not sure how viable even they would be since you need strong HOTs to make Blood Frenzy viable and all of your skills will be 10% more expensive if you want the Strike from the Shadows passive.

For all other NB builds, the vampirism rework is a net negative.

I would like to see an example of a high health NB tank build working in pvp as a vampire (or even not as a vampire for that matter).
Iv'e been trying to make such a build work for a while now but i can't seem to get it right (both in damage output and survivability)

Langeston · May 2020

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

I honestly don’t think people realize how high crit damage can go , you having 3k impen isn’t stopping a Templar or NB with an extra 30-40 percent crit damage + a ton of penetration.

Well, I know exactly how high it can go.

So with base crit + crit modifiers how much damage is 3k impen really mitigating from a Templar and NB ?

3k crit resistance mitigates 45.45% crit damage, regardless of crit modifiers or class. When the changes go live, that 3k will turn into 3,748 and it will mitigate 56.78%.

It'll probably feel worse in no CP though. Because you lose 9% crit chance and [up to] 25% crit damage in no CP, the on-demand crits that Cloak allows and the 10% crit damage increase from Hemorrhage are invaluable to NBs. An additional 11% crit damage loss will be pretty noticable.

Langeston · May 2020

Baraber wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Banana wrote: »

You gankers are getting a buff with the vamp changes and that ridiculous mythic item

No, classes with good sustain and healing (read: non-Nightblades) are [potentially] getting buffed by the vamp changes, and the "ridiculous mythic item" resets to zero if you even accidentally crouch, let alone cloak.

I spent the better part of 2 weeks on the PTS trying to make vampirism work on my magblade, and basically I have to either stay at stage one and lose [a not insignificant amount of] damage, or cure myself and still lose a small amount. Blood Frenzy is completely non-viable.

The only NB PVP builds that vampirism may work with are high health tank builds (thus not much if any damage increase) and possibly bow-gank builds — but I'm not sure how viable even they would be since you need strong HOTs to make Blood Frenzy viable and all of your skills will be 10% more expensive if you want the Strike from the Shadows passive.

For all other NB builds, the vampirism rework is a net negative.

I would like to see an example of a high health NB tank build working in pvp as a vampire (or even not as a vampire for that matter).
Iv'e been trying to make such a build work for a while now but i can't seem to get it right (both in damage output and survivability)

Oh, I don't know that the build itself would be all that great, I'm just saying that that's likely what you'd need to fully take advantage of vampirism on a NB. The health per second cost of Blood Frenzy is pretty high.

BaiterOfZergs · May 2020

Langeston wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

I honestly don’t think people realize how high crit damage can go , you having 3k impen isn’t stopping a Templar or NB with an extra 30-40 percent crit damage + a ton of penetration.

Well, I know exactly how high it can go.

So with base crit + crit modifiers how much damage is 3k impen really mitigating from a Templar and NB ?

3k crit resistance mitigates 45.45% crit damage, regardless of crit modifiers or class. When the changes go live, that 3k will turn into 3,748 and it will mitigate 56.78%.

It'll probably feel worse in no CP though. Because you lose 9% crit chance and [up to] 25% crit damage in no CP, the on-demand crits that Cloak allows and the 10% crit damage increase from Hemorrhage are invaluable to NBs. An additional 11% crit damage loss will be pretty noticable.

What is the base crit modifier?

You also have to consider that your damage and someone else’s extra 30 percent damage isn’t the same. So that 30-40 percent can be added on to let’s say 1500 or it can be added on to 3500. Which is a noticeable difference.

I also think no cp next update will have ridiculously high damage, damage is already too high in no cp. So while 11% is a good amount to lose you still have to account for the extra damage you’re getting in no cp due to the mitigation nerfs.

Rianai · May 2020

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

I honestly don’t think people realize how high crit damage can go , you having 3k impen isn’t stopping a Templar or NB with an extra 30-40 percent crit damage + a ton of penetration.

Well, I know exactly how high it can go.

So with base crit + crit modifiers how much damage is 3k impen really mitigating from a Templar and NB ?

3k crit resistance mitigates 45.45% crit damage, regardless of crit modifiers or class. When the changes go live, that 3k will turn into 3,748 and it will mitigate 56.78%.

It'll probably feel worse in no CP though. Because you lose 9% crit chance and [up to] 25% crit damage in no CP, the on-demand crits that Cloak allows and the 10% crit damage increase from Hemorrhage are invaluable to NBs. An additional 11% crit damage loss will be pretty noticable.

What is the base crit modifier?

You also have to consider that your damage and someone else’s extra 30 percent damage isn’t the same. So that 30-40 percent can be added on to let’s say 1500 or it can be added on to 3500. Which is a noticeable difference.

I also think no cp next update will have ridiculously high damage, damage is already too high in no cp. So while 11% is a good amount to lose you still have to account for the extra damage you’re getting in no cp due to the mitigation nerfs.

(Crit) Dmg in nocp certainly does not need any nerfs. Only dmg that is too high in nocp is proc dmg and that's not reduced by crit resist - but it will get a huge buff by malacath's. Shifting the meta even more towards procs is the opposite of what should happen for nocp pvp.

BaiterOfZergs · May 2020

Rianai wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

I honestly don’t think people realize how high crit damage can go , you having 3k impen isn’t stopping a Templar or NB with an extra 30-40 percent crit damage + a ton of penetration.

Well, I know exactly how high it can go.

So with base crit + crit modifiers how much damage is 3k impen really mitigating from a Templar and NB ?

3k crit resistance mitigates 45.45% crit damage, regardless of crit modifiers or class. When the changes go live, that 3k will turn into 3,748 and it will mitigate 56.78%.

It'll probably feel worse in no CP though. Because you lose 9% crit chance and [up to] 25% crit damage in no CP, the on-demand crits that Cloak allows and the 10% crit damage increase from Hemorrhage are invaluable to NBs. An additional 11% crit damage loss will be pretty noticable.

What is the base crit modifier?

You also have to consider that your damage and someone else’s extra 30 percent damage isn’t the same. So that 30-40 percent can be added on to let’s say 1500 or it can be added on to 3500. Which is a noticeable difference.

I also think no cp next update will have ridiculously high damage, damage is already too high in no cp. So while 11% is a good amount to lose you still have to account for the extra damage you’re getting in no cp due to the mitigation nerfs.

(Crit) Dmg in nocp certainly does not need any nerfs. Only dmg that is too high in nocp is proc dmg and that's not reduced by crit resist - but it will get a huge buff by malacath's. Shifting the meta even more towards procs is the opposite of what should happen for nocp pvp.

No one really uses proc damage in no cp. I mostly play no cp.

Damage is definitely high in no cp, the only thing that balances it out is healers and people that know what they’re doing but even then you can still damn near instagib someone. Even with lower crit chance people still crit a lot as well, wizard riposte meta made it even more blatantly obvious.

A few people will try to use the ring but have to wait and see how that goes. Although that would just add to my no cp prediction with or without procs.

Anyways. I didn’t say anything about a nerf, just that damage is too high because it is and good players aren’t good indicators , average players are because good players will always skew things since they’ll always adapt and be good. That’s the reason you don’t balance a game based on the 1 percent.

xylena · May 2020

NB has been completely mangled in the name of preserving its spammable invisibility. It's too late now.

WTB ESO Classic 1.4 so I can roll into zergs on a Sap Tank.

Rianai · May 2020

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

I honestly don’t think people realize how high crit damage can go , you having 3k impen isn’t stopping a Templar or NB with an extra 30-40 percent crit damage + a ton of penetration.

Well, I know exactly how high it can go.

So with base crit + crit modifiers how much damage is 3k impen really mitigating from a Templar and NB ?

3k crit resistance mitigates 45.45% crit damage, regardless of crit modifiers or class. When the changes go live, that 3k will turn into 3,748 and it will mitigate 56.78%.

It'll probably feel worse in no CP though. Because you lose 9% crit chance and [up to] 25% crit damage in no CP, the on-demand crits that Cloak allows and the 10% crit damage increase from Hemorrhage are invaluable to NBs. An additional 11% crit damage loss will be pretty noticable.

What is the base crit modifier?

You also have to consider that your damage and someone else’s extra 30 percent damage isn’t the same. So that 30-40 percent can be added on to let’s say 1500 or it can be added on to 3500. Which is a noticeable difference.

I also think no cp next update will have ridiculously high damage, damage is already too high in no cp. So while 11% is a good amount to lose you still have to account for the extra damage you’re getting in no cp due to the mitigation nerfs.

(Crit) Dmg in nocp certainly does not need any nerfs. Only dmg that is too high in nocp is proc dmg and that's not reduced by crit resist - but it will get a huge buff by malacath's. Shifting the meta even more towards procs is the opposite of what should happen for nocp pvp.

No one really uses proc damage in no cp. I mostly play no cp.

Damage is definitely high in no cp, the only thing that balances it out is healers and people that know what they’re doing but even then you can still damn near instagib someone. Even with lower crit chance people still crit a lot as well, wizard riposte meta made it even more blatantly obvious.

A few people will try to use the ring but have to wait and see how that goes. Although that would just add to my no cp prediction with or without procs.

Anyways. I didn’t say anything about a nerf, just that damage is too high because it is and good players aren’t good indicators , average players are because good players will always skew things since they’ll always adapt and be good. That’s the reason you don’t balance a game based on the 1 percent.

The first sentence is just straight up nonsense. Procs have always been very prevalent in nocp pvp.
But outside of those dmg is not too high and players that get "instagibed" on a regular basis need to l2 play and/or build. Even if there were some overperforming gank builds (which again, aren't even getting nerfed because vamp ...), those things have to be adressed on an individual basis, but don't justify overall dmg nerfs.

WR was popular because it didn't need "a lot of crits" for 100% uptime, and its dmg mitigation applied to all dmg, not just crits. After the nerfs it is almost extinct. If crit dmg was an issue, more players in nocp would run trans or impreg - but almost nobody does.

And it is not possible to balance a game arround players that have no clue, because they will complain about everything and even if everything gets nerfed there will always be something those players can't deal with or don't understand and therefore cry about.